With or Without God

Product Details

Author : Gretta Vosper
Binding : Hardcover
EAN : 9781554682287
Product Group : Book
Publication Date : 2008-03-12

ASIN : 1554682282

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Customer Reviews

An Amazing Book...Hopeful, Prophetic and Bold! (2008-07-21)

This is not a book for someone who's "comfortable" with their traditional understanding of church, God, Jesus and Christianity. Don't bother reading it - you'll just get angry.For those of us who are NOT "comfortable" with the traditional understandings of these things this is an amazing book. For those of us who are still active in church it is challenging, even to those who might consider themselves liberal or progressive (as I do).Vosper builds on the work of recent scholars and theologians such as Spong, Borg, Crossan, and Geering, to boldly state not only what most liberal Christians believe/doubt (God is not a being, there is no heaven or hell, the Bible is not inerrant - it has good, bad and ugly bits, Jesus was not God, Jesus was not a blood sacrifice to wash away sin, etc...) but to challenge us to envision what a "faith" could look like once it jettisons all the "unnecessary" dogmatic and institutional baggage we've accumulated on our 2,000 year journey.Some of this "baggage" is as comforting as Linus' "security blanket" and will be just as hard for some people to live without! Can we no longer pray and expect God to respond? Can we no longer expect to go to heaven and see our dog Fluffy and all our loved ones? Can we no longer assume that we are the "one true" religion? Isn't Jesus the saviour of the world??Vosper's great insight, in my opinion, which is perhaps not original to her, but she expounds the principle well, is that things like love, relationship, compassion, justice, and community have intrinsic value of their own - they don't need divine sanction to have worth. A group of humanists, working to provide better access to government services for a disadvantaged group is doing sacred work according to Vosper. God IS compassion, not some gray-bearded man in the sky.Vosper goes way beyond where I thought progressive Christianity could go in my lifetime, but that's what separates the prophets from the rest of us.This book is recommended for anyone who still holds out hope for the human community and our ability to work together "faithfully" holding to shared respect for common values such as dignity, justice and integrity. When the Christian church becomes such a community the "heaven on earth" world envisioned by Jesus will be a step closer to reality.

Humanity must transcend age old beliefs! (2008-04-16)

It's comforting to know that there are those within the spiritual community who are willing to take risks. Greta Vosper has taken one of the biggest risks a Minister can by publishing a book that questions the very foundations and viability of Christianity in its present form. If you take into consideration the group of people a Minister must contend with in their work and day to day lives this makes Greta's book even more profound. Religious Zealots and those who would claim to be the protectors of age old and sacred tradtions will find With or Without God a hard pill to swallow, but it is this age old and outdated mindset that will eventual erode the foundation of Christianity. Humanity as a whole is at crossroads between the cold wonder of technological advancement and the warm comfort of faith, but time moves mountains and with each new generation the concept of God and all his trappings slides further into background of family tradition. Vosper's book shines a spotlight on the negatives and positives of organized religion and uncovers many of the oppositions one faces in trying to introduce progressive ideas to a society of followers unwilling to give up stuffy traditions and stale beliefs.

A breath of fresh air (2008-04-14)

It should come as no surprise that, today, we are witnessing a problematic and dangerous shift in focus about belief (or non-belief) in God. Gretta Vospers book, 'With Or Without God' will be dismissed by those for whom God is not to be debated but defended at all costs. But God has become a problem for many others. A significant number of these persist in their spiritual search within the context of todays resurgence of religious fundamentalism and the latest critical and scientific thinking. But they are no longer willing to accept the supernatural God of dogmatic Christianity. For them this book may well come as a breath of fresh air.Gretta Vosper challenges Christians to address the God problem, recognizing this will change the very nature of Christianity. Hers is a prophetic voice that is directed at long held interpretations, values, and priorities and calls for their review. She is in good company. A prophet is not without honor except in his (or her) own country and own house. Vosper offers good news and hope for all who can no longer ascribe to a Christianity that insists on a supernatural God - the Almighty, the lawgiver and judge who convicts the world of sin. 'With Or Without God' shares the dreams and visions of new possibilities for a Christianity she believes has otherwise become so obstructed by its words and rituals, it no longer resonates with contemporary life. Like the radical reformers of the sixteenth century, Vosper is tired of reinterpreting religious language and symbols that have been misused so long. It is a struggle to find alternatives to the jargon of "Christ", "God", "sin", and eucharist to name but a few. But is she asking us to "toss out the baby with the bath water? Not so. Vospers desire is that the child survives, matures and is transformed.Practitioners of religion who seek to be progressive are not all in the same place nor do they carry the same baggage. This needs to be stressed. Vosper reflects on her Christian experience as practiced, for the most part, within the United Church of Canada - a Protestant denomination of calvinist and liberal roots where emphasis is placed upon the authority of the spoken Word. She makes assumptions that challenge others to address their sacramental theologies and liturgical traditions. Some, like myself, will protest there is more than one theory of the atonement, and there are several sacramental theologies. Vosper responds, "Where the shoe fits, wear it." I take exception to the subtitle of Vospers book 'Why the way we live' is more important than what we believe. It makes a wonderfully provocative statement for a book cover. But if you open up that cover, youll never find it written on the pages in between. Far from it! Instead, Gretta Vosper stresses her point that it is the way we live our lives that reflects what we believe and hold as being sacred.Gretta Vosper exposes dilemmas faced by every thinking Christian and she indicates where there is possibility of reform. Some will seek responsible change from within their Christian tradition, others from without. 'With Or Without God' should help provoke that change. The road of progress for those who follow Jesus invites them to live with questions and to follow the way of compassion. It requires them to bear one anothers burdens. 'With Or Without God' will assist them in their search to make sense of their lives, the world, and of the nagging notion of something greater that has created and sustains it all.

Throwing the Baby (Jesus) Out With the Bathwater (2008-04-07)

Canadian United Church pastor (Westhill United Church in Toronto - www.warmplace.ca ) and now author Gretta Vosper's book, titled With or Without God should really be titled Without God because that's essentially where it leads; another fitting title would be Throwing the Baby (Jesus) Out With the Bath Water. By the end of the book Vosper describes the heritage of Christianity (and essentially all forms of belief in the supernatural) as human dreams and nothing more. There is no room for God in what she calls "progressive Christianity". It is amazing that she can be considered a Christian pastor, literally one who is called by Christ to shepherd people in The Way, given she doesn't even promote a belief in God let alone the divinity of Christ, etc. The appendix to the book is a description of a Theistic and a non-theistic (why not say Atheistic - that's what it is) service. The preference is clearly toward the non-theistic church service. The book is inconsistently footnoted and often vast, sweeping statements and assumptions are made without any external reference (see p.89 which references Emperor Constantine's motivations for converting). This particular style of developing the argument is similar to that of Baigent, Leigh & Lincoln in their book Holy Blood, Holy Grail - for their effort the first letters of their last names came to form an apt acronym. I would be lying if I didn't say that the massive amount of coverage for this book in Macleans and the CBC didn't disappoint me primarily for it's one-sidedness. There is no care to bother to interview orthodox Christian scholars but rather any reference to this side of Christianity is made by those who staunchly oppose it. Well - for what it's worth everything Vosper has to say in this book has been said before and far more eloquently by the likes of Marcus Borg, John Shelby Spong, and John Dominic Crossan (none of whom I agree with but scholars all). Vosper is also the chair of the group - Progressive Christianity. All in all this book is less substance than a kind of a cultural bookmark not unlike the kind emerging secular leaders are "required" to publish in order to move to a higher level of leadership in the culture. This book feels the same - like an attempt to establish Vosper rather than to promote serious dialogue.

WOW! (2008-04-01)

I would have preferred a rating of 6 or 10 stars, but the Amazon system sets a maximum of only 5.This book, and Barrie Wilson's book "How Jesus became Christian: St. Paul, the Early Church and the Jesus Cover-up" should become the two most important religious books of the decade.Recently, some Atheist, Agnostic, and other authors in the U.S. have gone beyond the traditional concept concept of God and have attempted to demolish Christianity through the use of hate and sarcasm. These two Canadian authors have taken a positive path that may lead to the advancement of Christianity in a new form.Ms. Vosper shows how traditional Christianity's main function is to provide a pacifier for its members in order to give them a sense of security in a frightening world. She shows how scientific knowledge has sprinted forward over recent centuries while theology continues to be confined and immobilized within ancient structures. This way leads to irrelevance and continued decline. Vosper provides an exciting progressive alternative.If you can afford to buy only one book this year, choose this one!

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